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	<title>Comments on: KotW:  End the War on Drugs</title>
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	<description>(We're all strangers in a strange land.)</description>
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		<title>By: implementor</title>
		<link>http://strangeland.net/2009/04/kotw-end-the-war-on-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-16491</link>
		<dc:creator>implementor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The biggest problem, beyond the moral quandaries of a government telling people what they can do with their own bodies when they aren&#039;t harming anyone else, is the funding of violence that is enabled by the illegality of the drug trade.  It&#039;s one of the biggest industries in the US and the world, making it illegal has only forced it into extra-legal channels, funding those willing to engage in criminal activities to protect their drug profits.  It takes it out of the realm of something we can control and puts it squarely in the realm that we&#039;ve demonstrated that we cannot.  And that is, simply, stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The biggest problem, beyond the moral quandaries of a government telling people what they can do with their own bodies when they aren&#8217;t harming anyone else, is the funding of violence that is enabled by the illegality of the drug trade.  It&#8217;s one of the biggest industries in the US and the world, making it illegal has only forced it into extra-legal channels, funding those willing to engage in criminal activities to protect their drug profits.  It takes it out of the realm of something we can control and puts it squarely in the realm that we&#8217;ve demonstrated that we cannot.  And that is, simply, stupid.</p>
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		<title>By: stranger</title>
		<link>http://strangeland.net/2009/04/kotw-end-the-war-on-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-16490</link>
		<dc:creator>stranger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strangeland.net/?p=251#comment-16490</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-16489&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@dbroussa&lt;/a&gt; 
Do you really consider your body not to be part of your property or someone assaulting you not to impact your life (or put it in danger)?  You&#039;re an intelligent man, and I find it hard to believe you can&#039;t see where laws against assault fall into protect life, liberty, or property.

You are also jumping into the realm of hyperbole with the &#039;give away drugs for free&#039; argument.  Do we give away cigarettes or alcohol for free?  No, we don&#039;t.  Therefore there is absolutely no grounds for assuming the government would start giving away drugs for free.  Also, if you go back and read my original post, you&#039;ll see that I noted it would be far more effective to put money into treatment programs to combat drug use than it is to continue a war on drugs that has completely failed.

Also by legalizing drugs, you&#039;re removing the majority of the things that cause all of the violence surrounding the drug trade.  You try to make the argument of comparing this to bootlegging of cigarettes in New York by ignoring the fact this is caused by the over-taxation by the Government in one local area.  Are people bootlegging cigarettes in Atlanta or San Antonio?  No, they&#039;re not.  So claiming this will happen with legalized drugs in a general sense has no basis.

On your final point, do you really believe that the drug cartels would hire lobbyists to get Congress to not legalize drugs?  I find that a little hard to believe, but let&#039;s assume for a moment they would attempt to put pressure on Congress in some fashion.  Why would they do this?  Because legalizing drugs would put them out of business in the United States.  Their market would have the bottom drop out and they&#039;d be stuck either having to move through legal channels at much smaller profits or simply turn their attentions elsewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-16489" rel="nofollow">@dbroussa</a><br />
Do you really consider your body not to be part of your property or someone assaulting you not to impact your life (or put it in danger)?  You&#8217;re an intelligent man, and I find it hard to believe you can&#8217;t see where laws against assault fall into protect life, liberty, or property.</p>
<p>You are also jumping into the realm of hyperbole with the &#8216;give away drugs for free&#8217; argument.  Do we give away cigarettes or alcohol for free?  No, we don&#8217;t.  Therefore there is absolutely no grounds for assuming the government would start giving away drugs for free.  Also, if you go back and read my original post, you&#8217;ll see that I noted it would be far more effective to put money into treatment programs to combat drug use than it is to continue a war on drugs that has completely failed.</p>
<p>Also by legalizing drugs, you&#8217;re removing the majority of the things that cause all of the violence surrounding the drug trade.  You try to make the argument of comparing this to bootlegging of cigarettes in New York by ignoring the fact this is caused by the over-taxation by the Government in one local area.  Are people bootlegging cigarettes in Atlanta or San Antonio?  No, they&#8217;re not.  So claiming this will happen with legalized drugs in a general sense has no basis.</p>
<p>On your final point, do you really believe that the drug cartels would hire lobbyists to get Congress to not legalize drugs?  I find that a little hard to believe, but let&#8217;s assume for a moment they would attempt to put pressure on Congress in some fashion.  Why would they do this?  Because legalizing drugs would put them out of business in the United States.  Their market would have the bottom drop out and they&#8217;d be stuck either having to move through legal channels at much smaller profits or simply turn their attentions elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: dbroussa</title>
		<link>http://strangeland.net/2009/04/kotw-end-the-war-on-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-16489</link>
		<dc:creator>dbroussa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strangeland.net/?p=251#comment-16489</guid>
		<description>Laws are enacted to protect the common good (as defined by society).  They also happen to be enforcing morality.  For example, there are some moral codes in which property is not sacrosanct, but in Judeo-Christian morality it is.  Now, are those laws based upon the Judeo-Christian tenets through English Common Law, or are they good common sense (or both).  Personally I think they are both.  Why do we have laws against assault it does not directly infringe upon life, liberty, or property?  Assault is a gateway crime (to use a similar anti-drug phrase) that often leads to a loss of life or liberty, but drugs are actually quite similar.  Get addicted to heroin and your entire life becomes about getting your next fix of the drug, and you will do anything to get it.  Now, if you don&#039;t have the money for the drugs, will the gov&#039;t just give it to you?  Is it then the gov&#039;ts responsibility to provide drugs free of charge to anyone who cannot afford them and is not addicted?  Will employers be allowed to prohibit employees who partake of drugs from working for them?  I am not keen on the idea of a bus driver who has a meth flashback while my kids are riding to school one day, but if drugs are legal...then where is the ability for an employer to prohibit drug users from working for them.  

I agree with you that I do not think that the illegal nature is the primary contributing factor.  I think it is moreso the push of society to glamorize the use of drugs while at the same time decrying the use of tobacco.  Tobacco us is purely legal for those over 18 and yet to show a person smoking mandates at least a PG rating, and underage tobacco use is a PG-13 rating (IIRC).  Yet drug use is seen as happy and not destructive at all.  We see many more movies like Pineapple Express then say Payback or Trainspotting that show the horrible effect of what drugs do to people.

In the end while I agree that it is not the gov&#039;ts job to take care of people, it is the gov&#039;ts job to incent people to act in ways that are beneficial to society.  I don&#039;t think that one can make an argument that drug use is beneficial for society and thus I don&#039;t see a reason for the gov&#039;t to promote it.  I understand that your argument is that the gov&#039;t should neither promote it nor prohibit it, but I think that the societal fall out from that will be worse.  The Cato article says that 7 years of evidence is ample to see the results of decriminalization of drugs, but I would say that it will take at least a generation for the full effects to be seen.  It is also noted that most of the EU has decriminalized drug use so Portugal is not exactly a stand out in that regard.  Holland is well known as a country were drugs are easy to obtain and legal.  

But let&#039;s perform a quick exercise.  If legalizing drugs will solve so many problems then why stop at just legalizing them?  Why not provide them free of charge to anyone who wants them?  if you want a hit of any drug, just go to the corner pharmacy and request one.  They will provide you with a small amount for your personal use for the next week let&#039;s say and you are on your way with your free drugs.  In this scenario, we have totally undercut the drug cartels raison d&#039;etre and they would wither on the vine. The pharmaceutical companies could provide the clean recreational drugs at a fraction of the cost of the cartels and the money can come from the current funds used to prosecute the war on drugs.  In one fell swoop you remove the need for a illegal system by giving drugs away and likely do it cheaper then the currant war on drugs.  Of course now we have the US gov&#039;t in the business of dealing drugs to people, but that seems to me a small price to pay, and in the end it is required because unless the gov&#039;t subsidizes the supply of drugs to be dirt cheap, there will still be a market for black market drugs and you will see escalating violence, mush as you see violence and crime surrounding &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-468es.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;black market cigarettes&gt;&lt;/a&gt; in places like NYC where high prices have driven consumers to bootleggers who fight for the increasingly lucrative market of cigarettes in NYC.  Thus, legalization of drugs will perforce lead to a gov&#039;t subsidy or delivery of drugs to people who cannot afford them, and if it doesn&#039;t (especially if a &quot;sin tax&quot; in levied) then we will simply see a return to the black market drug wars that we currently see (albeit in a slightly different form).

And in the end, that is the inherent problem with drug legalization...can it be done in such a way as to prevent crime from taking advantage of it without the gov&#039;t having to take a big hand in it.  The real question there will be will the drug cartels that make billions upon billions of $ from the US be willing to let the US legalize drugs?  I doubt it, and I am not convinced that legalization is the correct way to undercut them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laws are enacted to protect the common good (as defined by society).  They also happen to be enforcing morality.  For example, there are some moral codes in which property is not sacrosanct, but in Judeo-Christian morality it is.  Now, are those laws based upon the Judeo-Christian tenets through English Common Law, or are they good common sense (or both).  Personally I think they are both.  Why do we have laws against assault it does not directly infringe upon life, liberty, or property?  Assault is a gateway crime (to use a similar anti-drug phrase) that often leads to a loss of life or liberty, but drugs are actually quite similar.  Get addicted to heroin and your entire life becomes about getting your next fix of the drug, and you will do anything to get it.  Now, if you don&#8217;t have the money for the drugs, will the gov&#8217;t just give it to you?  Is it then the gov&#8217;ts responsibility to provide drugs free of charge to anyone who cannot afford them and is not addicted?  Will employers be allowed to prohibit employees who partake of drugs from working for them?  I am not keen on the idea of a bus driver who has a meth flashback while my kids are riding to school one day, but if drugs are legal&#8230;then where is the ability for an employer to prohibit drug users from working for them.  </p>
<p>I agree with you that I do not think that the illegal nature is the primary contributing factor.  I think it is moreso the push of society to glamorize the use of drugs while at the same time decrying the use of tobacco.  Tobacco us is purely legal for those over 18 and yet to show a person smoking mandates at least a PG rating, and underage tobacco use is a PG-13 rating (IIRC).  Yet drug use is seen as happy and not destructive at all.  We see many more movies like Pineapple Express then say Payback or Trainspotting that show the horrible effect of what drugs do to people.</p>
<p>In the end while I agree that it is not the gov&#8217;ts job to take care of people, it is the gov&#8217;ts job to incent people to act in ways that are beneficial to society.  I don&#8217;t think that one can make an argument that drug use is beneficial for society and thus I don&#8217;t see a reason for the gov&#8217;t to promote it.  I understand that your argument is that the gov&#8217;t should neither promote it nor prohibit it, but I think that the societal fall out from that will be worse.  The Cato article says that 7 years of evidence is ample to see the results of decriminalization of drugs, but I would say that it will take at least a generation for the full effects to be seen.  It is also noted that most of the EU has decriminalized drug use so Portugal is not exactly a stand out in that regard.  Holland is well known as a country were drugs are easy to obtain and legal.  </p>
<p>But let&#8217;s perform a quick exercise.  If legalizing drugs will solve so many problems then why stop at just legalizing them?  Why not provide them free of charge to anyone who wants them?  if you want a hit of any drug, just go to the corner pharmacy and request one.  They will provide you with a small amount for your personal use for the next week let&#8217;s say and you are on your way with your free drugs.  In this scenario, we have totally undercut the drug cartels raison d&#8217;etre and they would wither on the vine. The pharmaceutical companies could provide the clean recreational drugs at a fraction of the cost of the cartels and the money can come from the current funds used to prosecute the war on drugs.  In one fell swoop you remove the need for a illegal system by giving drugs away and likely do it cheaper then the currant war on drugs.  Of course now we have the US gov&#8217;t in the business of dealing drugs to people, but that seems to me a small price to pay, and in the end it is required because unless the gov&#8217;t subsidizes the supply of drugs to be dirt cheap, there will still be a market for black market drugs and you will see escalating violence, mush as you see violence and crime surrounding <a href="http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-468es.html" rel="nofollow">black market cigarettes&gt;</a> in places like NYC where high prices have driven consumers to bootleggers who fight for the increasingly lucrative market of cigarettes in NYC.  Thus, legalization of drugs will perforce lead to a gov&#8217;t subsidy or delivery of drugs to people who cannot afford them, and if it doesn&#8217;t (especially if a &#8220;sin tax&#8221; in levied) then we will simply see a return to the black market drug wars that we currently see (albeit in a slightly different form).</p>
<p>And in the end, that is the inherent problem with drug legalization&#8230;can it be done in such a way as to prevent crime from taking advantage of it without the gov&#8217;t having to take a big hand in it.  The real question there will be will the drug cartels that make billions upon billions of $ from the US be willing to let the US legalize drugs?  I doubt it, and I am not convinced that legalization is the correct way to undercut them.</p>
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		<title>By: jezebel</title>
		<link>http://strangeland.net/2009/04/kotw-end-the-war-on-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-16488</link>
		<dc:creator>jezebel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strangeland.net/?p=251#comment-16488</guid>
		<description>@dbroussa
You have been led to believe that most illegal drugs in this country were made that way because they were harmful. The fact that drugs can be harmful I will not argue, but that is NOT why they were made illegal. Most of the drug laws in this country were passed for political or economic gain.  

Drug addiction does have a devastating effect on the people around it, no doubt, but so does se xual addiction. Do you propose we make se x illegal because some people become addicted to it? Se xual addictions ruin lives, destroy families and spread diseases. So, is the cure to outlaw se x? No, the cure it education &amp; treatment. The same should apply to drugs. 

Marijuana was never made illegal because it was harmful (it&#039;s safer than most of the drugs on your local store shelves). It was made illegal because of William Randolph Hurst&#039;s paper empire and his ability to buy politicians to vote his way. It has been kept illegal because of the political power the the tobacco industry wields today. Opium was made illegal because of prejudice against the Chinese. Might I suggest you watch the History Channel&#039;s series &quot;Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way&quot;. It may open your eyes a bit as to WHY so many drugs were put on the &quot;naughty&quot; list. They are not there for the reasons politicians today lead you to believe. 

I&#039;m with the author of this post on this subject. End the War On Drugs and spend the money on treatment instead. Tax it and use the revenue to fund treatment programs and education. Eliminate the black market and you INSTANTLY reduce the crime that is associated with it. If you honestly believe that because drugs are illegal fewer people use or addicted to them, then I believe you are grossly naive. And if you believe that the laws in place protect people from themselves, then let&#039;s make those laws consistent. Let&#039;s outlaw anything that people can become addicted too and that can be harmful to them. Sex, prescription drugs, over the counter drugs, plastic surgery, alcohol, tobacco... the list would be never ending.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@dbroussa<br />
You have been led to believe that most illegal drugs in this country were made that way because they were harmful. The fact that drugs can be harmful I will not argue, but that is NOT why they were made illegal. Most of the drug laws in this country were passed for political or economic gain.  </p>
<p>Drug addiction does have a devastating effect on the people around it, no doubt, but so does se xual addiction. Do you propose we make se x illegal because some people become addicted to it? Se xual addictions ruin lives, destroy families and spread diseases. So, is the cure to outlaw se x? No, the cure it education &amp; treatment. The same should apply to drugs. </p>
<p>Marijuana was never made illegal because it was harmful (it&#8217;s safer than most of the drugs on your local store shelves). It was made illegal because of William Randolph Hurst&#8217;s paper empire and his ability to buy politicians to vote his way. It has been kept illegal because of the political power the the tobacco industry wields today. Opium was made illegal because of prejudice against the Chinese. Might I suggest you watch the History Channel&#8217;s series &#8220;Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way&#8221;. It may open your eyes a bit as to WHY so many drugs were put on the &#8220;naughty&#8221; list. They are not there for the reasons politicians today lead you to believe. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m with the author of this post on this subject. End the War On Drugs and spend the money on treatment instead. Tax it and use the revenue to fund treatment programs and education. Eliminate the black market and you INSTANTLY reduce the crime that is associated with it. If you honestly believe that because drugs are illegal fewer people use or addicted to them, then I believe you are grossly naive. And if you believe that the laws in place protect people from themselves, then let&#8217;s make those laws consistent. Let&#8217;s outlaw anything that people can become addicted too and that can be harmful to them. Sex, prescription drugs, over the counter drugs, plastic surgery, alcohol, tobacco&#8230; the list would be never ending.</p>
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		<title>By: stranger</title>
		<link>http://strangeland.net/2009/04/kotw-end-the-war-on-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-16487</link>
		<dc:creator>stranger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strangeland.net/?p=251#comment-16487</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-16486&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@dbroussa&lt;/a&gt; 

I disagree with you on the stance of morality being the reason for why laws are enacted.  They are enacted to protect life, liberty, and property.  Laws against theft?  Protecting property.  Laws against murder?  Protecting life.  Laws against Drugs?  Not protecting any of the above.  They are a direct government enforcement of morality--just like Prohibition was.

I also freely acknowledge that addiction has an impact on people around them on various levels.  I still maintain that is not the Government&#039;s responsibility to deal with unless it violates someone else&#039;s right to life, liberty, or property.  If it meets that criteria, there are other laws to handle it.

Also, I never made the claim that the only reason there is rampant drug use is because it&#039;s illegal.  I stated it was a reason for it.  I fully acknowledge that the glorification of it adds to it, just like anything else.  As for the argument of a need for these laws, Portugal has not fallen into chaos because drugs (including Cocaine and Heroin) were legalized. 

The War on Drugs in the US only serves two primary purposes:  enforcing one groups morality on the majority and to keep power in the hands of certain groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-16486" rel="nofollow">@dbroussa</a> </p>
<p>I disagree with you on the stance of morality being the reason for why laws are enacted.  They are enacted to protect life, liberty, and property.  Laws against theft?  Protecting property.  Laws against murder?  Protecting life.  Laws against Drugs?  Not protecting any of the above.  They are a direct government enforcement of morality&#8211;just like Prohibition was.</p>
<p>I also freely acknowledge that addiction has an impact on people around them on various levels.  I still maintain that is not the Government&#8217;s responsibility to deal with unless it violates someone else&#8217;s right to life, liberty, or property.  If it meets that criteria, there are other laws to handle it.</p>
<p>Also, I never made the claim that the only reason there is rampant drug use is because it&#8217;s illegal.  I stated it was a reason for it.  I fully acknowledge that the glorification of it adds to it, just like anything else.  As for the argument of a need for these laws, Portugal has not fallen into chaos because drugs (including Cocaine and Heroin) were legalized. </p>
<p>The War on Drugs in the US only serves two primary purposes:  enforcing one groups morality on the majority and to keep power in the hands of certain groups.</p>
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		<title>By: dbroussa</title>
		<link>http://strangeland.net/2009/04/kotw-end-the-war-on-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-16486</link>
		<dc:creator>dbroussa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strangeland.net/?p=251#comment-16486</guid>
		<description>I am going to disagree with you on this one.  One point that you make is that the War on Drugs is enforcement of a moral stance with the force of law.  While this is true, it is true of every criminal law that society enforces.  Removing morality from the equation gov&#039;t have the ability to pass laws because they benefit the common good.  For example, we decide that theft is illegal because it is not beneficial to society for people to be able to steal from each other.  It is a similar issue with illegal drugs.  We do not want people to be able to use drugs such as methamphetamines, or angel dust, or heroin because it is detrimental to society.  Your make the claim that it only affects the person that uses the drugs, but this is far from true.  One has only to talk to the parent of a child who has become addicted to drugs such as cocaine, or meth, or heroin to see the horrible affects it has on everyone around that person.  While it is true that alcohol can have a similar affect, it is not nearly as addicting as most illegal drugs.  

In the end, I have to ask the question.  If prior to the War on Drugs, only 2% of the population had used illegal drugs, yet now it is about 46% something is very strange.  For one, it sounds to me like the 2% number of people over 12 who had ever used drugs is horribly misstated coming from 1970 at the end of the 60s when marijuana usage was becoming epidemic.  In fact I would suspect that of the 46% from 2003 the greatest majority of those users would be marijuana users (and many from the 60s).

But the question remains, why have we seen a skyrocketing use of drugs in our society?  Is it purely due to their illegal nature?  Not likely.  Is it because their use is glorified in film, song, and literature?  I think  that is a legitimate contributing factor.  And that, IMO, is the real reason that the War fails, and why we are destroying Mexico and Columbia as nations.  Drugs are insanely destructive to the user, and to those around the user.  This is why society outlaws them.  While I think a case can be made that certain drugs may be allowable for a more relaxed legal status (such as marijuana, or XTC), I cannot think that legalizing cocaine or heroin will benefit society in any way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am going to disagree with you on this one.  One point that you make is that the War on Drugs is enforcement of a moral stance with the force of law.  While this is true, it is true of every criminal law that society enforces.  Removing morality from the equation gov&#8217;t have the ability to pass laws because they benefit the common good.  For example, we decide that theft is illegal because it is not beneficial to society for people to be able to steal from each other.  It is a similar issue with illegal drugs.  We do not want people to be able to use drugs such as methamphetamines, or angel dust, or heroin because it is detrimental to society.  Your make the claim that it only affects the person that uses the drugs, but this is far from true.  One has only to talk to the parent of a child who has become addicted to drugs such as cocaine, or meth, or heroin to see the horrible affects it has on everyone around that person.  While it is true that alcohol can have a similar affect, it is not nearly as addicting as most illegal drugs.  </p>
<p>In the end, I have to ask the question.  If prior to the War on Drugs, only 2% of the population had used illegal drugs, yet now it is about 46% something is very strange.  For one, it sounds to me like the 2% number of people over 12 who had ever used drugs is horribly misstated coming from 1970 at the end of the 60s when marijuana usage was becoming epidemic.  In fact I would suspect that of the 46% from 2003 the greatest majority of those users would be marijuana users (and many from the 60s).</p>
<p>But the question remains, why have we seen a skyrocketing use of drugs in our society?  Is it purely due to their illegal nature?  Not likely.  Is it because their use is glorified in film, song, and literature?  I think  that is a legitimate contributing factor.  And that, IMO, is the real reason that the War fails, and why we are destroying Mexico and Columbia as nations.  Drugs are insanely destructive to the user, and to those around the user.  This is why society outlaws them.  While I think a case can be made that certain drugs may be allowable for a more relaxed legal status (such as marijuana, or XTC), I cannot think that legalizing cocaine or heroin will benefit society in any way.</p>
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